The UK and USA like to conjure up a villain, a pantomime character if you will. To justify actions upon their own people. We've seen it before thoughout history but with increasing effect as technology develops and it becoming more ubiquitous in our lives. Today's special seems to be China, Russia and even us who dare to say "what the fuck?" to any of their lies. I've always thought of Chinese culture as being enlightened and family orientated. British have plagued them with opium and uprisings have been implemented.
I'm not falling for it , nor the anti Russian sentiment. And I'm not falling for the apparent myth of "cyber hackers". The empire has no clothes and its resorting to demonising other countries for its own gain.
China? I'd be more worried about the coming financial collapse engineered by the Rothschild-controlled City of London, central banks, derivative 'market' and US dollar world currency, money-printing scam ('world currency' implies a monopoly, which describes it quite well - as in Monopoly Money!). Or the 200-or-so wars instigated by the US around the world over the last 80 years - facilitated by their 800+ foreign military bases and network of colour-revolution-funding NGOs. But China? Nope, they've kept their eye on the ball.
Articles like the one above outline how the system evolved recently and that there is an explicit link between what your social credit score is and what services you can access. They aren't stupid and they're not going to do unnecessarily totalitarian things, but it is undeniable that when you say anything bad about the government there, they are going to make life very difficult for you indeed, and the newly introduced Cyberspace ID that came in this year centralises it even more. Basically, you never want to give that level of control to the government, ever, and this has nothing to do with how successful they are or what you might see and hear there as a tourist.
I've personally visited many times and it was a totally excellent place and almost everyone you spoke to was equally content (or so it seemed). However, did you speak to any "dissidents" or people who had a low score. I didn't because I don't know any, but I personally know many Chinese over in the West who never want to go back, no matter how nice it is, because they don't trust the government, especially after Covid where the mask literally came off (the government at least... You weren't allowed to take yours off, obviously).
You saw what the government tried to do here in the West... They actually did that in China, literally walling people into their respective areas and making sure they could basically do nothing if their pass wasn't Green.
Basically I agree that China is not always the complete totalitarian Hell hole that the clickbait pushers would like you to believe, but it is far further along the totalitarian path than we are, and to claim that the system they have there is basically exerting minimal control and is similar to systems already in place in some Western counties, is completely wrong and quite disingenuous. Maybe I've read your article wrong, but this is the impression I get, and as with any system of control, you want to normalise it gradually and make people think it's normal. They have basically achieved this, and the only reason it doesn't seem like that right now, is because they haven't been visibly abusing that power in such a blatant way that even their Great Firewall and social credit score couldn't keep it under wraps (see Covid response in China). The system is in place, facial recognition is normalised and expected, and your opinions and actions are absolutely tied to way more things than anyone should reasonably want. This is the reality in China and although they might not be using that power all the time, it's there and that's what matters. We need to make sure it doesn't happen here in the West!
Not really. If you drive badly, your driving license gets cancelled, but it doesn't affect your ability to do anything else, as there is no overall score. Nor does saying anything "forbidden" against the government change your ability to travel or get a loan or whatever (unless you get criminally charged I suppose, but even then, it's not a score). This is explicitly the case in China and the distinction is not trivial I'm afraid. Just imagine if Canada for example had that ability during the truckers protest. They explicitly froze bank accounts and tried to prosecute a bunch of them, but it was a manual, costly, and controversial move from them. If they were able to just lower their score automatically and completely cut them off, not just from their money, but from all other services as well, the protest probably couldn't have happened. You see any big protests in China (outside of the ones due to Covid). Thought not... It's not the same. Not even close
Have you been to China? If not, there is no way you can claim anything. You're just parroting what you see on the internet. Which is why visiting there is superior to NOT visiting.
I've been, as I've mentioned in my previous post. Many times both before and after Covid. It's very very nice unlike some of the cities I've visited in the West recently, that seem like they are in developing countries. Sadly, I don't think this means anything. I get your argument that it's not as dystopian as these clock bait bloggers make out, but honestly, saying it's the same as here is not helping anyone. They are way further along the totalitarian path than we are, and it helps no-one to say that it's the same. It is fundamentally not the same and you find out pretty quickly if you step out of line over there. Thankfully it's not the same over here yet. Please focus on that. That's the work we want to see and what will help here, not somehow saying it's not so bad in China where it's more totalitarian. I assume that's not the message you want to give.
He said twice that he’s been there multiple times. Here’s his quote from just above:
“I've been, as I've mentioned in my previous post. Many times both before and after Covid. It's very very nice unlike some of the cities I've visited in the West recently, that seem like they are in developing countries. Sadly, I don't think this means anything. I get your argument that it's not as dystopian as these clock bait bloggers make out, but honestly, saying it's the same as here is not helping anyone. They are way further along the totalitarian path than we are, and it helps no-one to say that it's the same”
Let's just agree to disagree. If you're starting to get into these unofficial surveillance methods, then I would tend to agree, but even then, they haven't explicitly linked any of that activity to your ability to do everything that you need to. The upcoming systems in the west linked to digital ID though, explicitly do. This interconnectedness is what is scary and must be resisted by all means, where I think we are totally aligned. Looking forward to your upcoming posts!
I'm afraid I have to disagree that it was about the same account of tyranny. It was much much worse in China, but I completely agree that what Germany is planning is in no way preserving our freedoms, but is absolutely following what China is doing. Please see my extra reply above about the fundamental differences in the way the systems work in both places though. It's not a trivial difference I'm afraid.
A friend of ours, who grew up in South Africa, has been living and working in China for the past 7 or 8 years. He now speaks fluent Mandarin and would agree with you, Jerm, that the Western perception of China is complete rubbish. He loves living there and finds the work opportunities far better than in Europe, where he also lived for many years.
Another friend, an American, lived and taught English there for 5 years. She loves the country and has many friends there. She also says that China is nothing like we've been brainwashed to believe it is.
Just a friendly reminder that social credit scores and facial recognition is how productive civilisations are built and high trust societies are maintained.
If someone starts a war, pushes poisonous injections onto the population, destroys ordinary businesses while creating monopolies, commits fraud or theft or is involved in any other type of scam then you need to lower their social credit score and exclude them from further participation in civilised society.
And if they show their faces again you need to recognise them and say "Hey! - the fuck outa here punk!" in your best New Yorker accent.
Social condemnation and social / economic ostracism are really the only tools we have to prevent the worst low life criminals from taking over society.
Based on the last 5 years alone, all politicians, doctors, nurses, scientists and most employers should now have a social credit score of NEGATIVE 50,000,000 and they should be at the bottom of the social hierarchy.
This not only removes them from the 'front lines' of society, but it also serves as an incentive for their replacements to clean up their act so they do not suffer a similar fate.
The problem is not the concept of social credit/ facial recognition. The problem is that we've been tricked into abandoning this practice, which also has allowed the worst elements in society to pick up the ball and run with it.
Your argument makes sense in principle, but reality will often mean that the system will very quickly degenerate into a horrible dystopia. The sad thing is that even if it is other people (and not the government) that decides who did something worthy of social credit score reduction, it'll still almost certainly be horrible. Just watch the Black Mirror episode on it and you will see what I mean. It's called Nosedive (there's even a Wiki page on it). I'm afraid having a social credit system, even if it isn't tied to anything else, is not something I can get behind.
I got banned from LinkedIn during Covid as I was asking too many questions and shared articles that I thought warranted a discussion.
To rejoin LinkedIn I need to upload my South African ID. I don't have an ID card as I was not born in South Africa, only the green ID book (I am a South African citizen by the way as I was born overseas due to my father being a diplomat)
I fumed when LinkedIn asked me for my ID. Why should I upload my ID when I didn't need to when I originally joined?!
I decided to see what would happen if I scanned my green ID book, but redacted the bar code and the last six digits of my ID number.
LinkedIn did not accept this.
So guess what? I am still not back on LinkedIn.
My point is, even though many people think we are not on a social credit score, there are companies/entities that do (or have) apply it.
Now, let's assume I want to apply for a new job. The company I want to work for goes and looks at my social media... Hmmm?!
No we do not, not officially anyway. The closest thing might be your credit score, but again, it only seems to affect your ability to get credit, not anything else. The distinction is important, that even if there is a score, if it only affects the thing that it's tied to, ie credit score to financial, bad driving to driving licence etc, these are not social credit scores
Thanks for helping us think it through. To my mind, people with a criminal record should get increased scrutiny. When law abiding folks get excess scrutiny because they are suspected of a critical attitude towards the govt, is that really "the same thing"?
I no longer believe anything I see online or from the media until I've vetted the source, and since I'm an average joe shmo, I've little ability to do so. I have never met and will likely never meet anyone who posts what I see, and I don't have any technical ability to dissect videos or images for something like ai. Other than sitting there going over everything I see looking for inconsistencies, which gets wearisome, i can't tell what's what. I guess at some point, some level of trust is necessary.
I've heard but not seen imagery about oppression etc, because of course china has things so incredibly locked down we can't get images of mutilated Uygurs. 🤔 But I've seen many videos coming, supposedly, out of china showing facial recognition technology everywhere in the major cities, people sleeping on the streets because their accounts were locked and they were locked out of their apartments, people being locked in during convid, etc. Facial recognition at groceries to access money, etc. Do you believe these videos to be fake and acted, or Ai generated, in some way, directly as propaganda? Did you not see any of this anywhere in the larger population areas? Are they real images being used "out of context? Because if not, that's an impressively large volume of videos to create. Who's making them?
I’d suggest, if you want a readership, that you not tell people they’re stupid or call them names. Have compassion for the world’s people who are confused, tired, and brainwashed.
Furthermore, I know people who live in China, and there most certainly is a serious social credit system. They don’t like what you’re saying? You don’t get to ride the train. Or go to the bank. Or a myriad of other things important to daily life.
You want to call me names over that statement? Go ahead.
Hey jerm, thank you for putting up with the insufferable sheep, grit your teeth and keep the honest journalism coming.Thankyou for your insight, the truth always prevails
This is one o the funniest comments I keep receiving and it's one of pointlessness. Going to a country is superior to NOT going. People will always kick the can down the road and make your experience irrelevant. I met up with people who have lived in China for 29 years, which beats your "one full year".
Jerm you have to admit this is a rather strange narrative in the current situation? Rather than trying to defend your position (and quoting Grok ffs) can you please explain why you think promoting an idea that the “CCP isn’t all that bad” is helpful and to whom? Are you encouraging people to move there perhaps? Who funded your trip there and what is your connection with Carl Zha?
Not sure who you are referring to here when you mention the "sheep" but if it is directed to Ursula, I can tell you from personal experience, having worked closely with her for close to three years now, that she is anything but "sheep" and EVERY single word in her question above is very intentional and comes from a place of DEEP knowledge.
I know more ‘truth’ about your trips to HKG & China than perhaps you realise, Jerm. I follow the money to see facts, and my questions (and others) remain unanswered.
It would appear to be a cryptic insinuation that you have financial links to "CCP agent" Carl Zha 😱 Substack is totally infiltrated so everything needs to be taken with a bucketful of organic sea salt.
Agree, Jerm! Your writing is nuanced and informed. Have you been to Hong Kong,? I have lived here for over 25 years and can suggest it's the most charming city in China. Currently on the rise again and probably the most exciting city in Asia. Please come! And let me know if you do!
After living and working in Spain for a few weeks I said "Wow. This is a fabulous country!" Four years later I said the same thing with tears in my eyes because I had to return to hellscape UK.
It is possible to get an accurate impression in a very short visit IF you go with an open mind.
BTW, a comparison between Spain & UK, with SA & China, (or UK & China, by a South African, Or even Germany & China) is not really relevant to the current discussion about social credit scores & digital ID. Just saying.
It's interesting to me that persons who feel the need to put PhD after their name see things generally from a more pedantic perspective than others. It's predictable and tiresome
Indeed. As tiresome as a company that you’ve trusted for years, donated valuable time, IP and hard earned, tax paid money to, posting personal insults to you and then censoring others when asking politely who their HKG-based new shareholders actually are? I’m still waiting for the new directors to tell us what if any strings are attached to this overseas company’s ‘investment’…Truth always gets out, eventually.
I love when someone goes to a place to see for themselves what’s going on. There is so much BS out there about everything. You have to see things with your own eyes and ears. That’s the only way you see the truth.
You're using a logical fallacy. I didn't say I'm an expert. But if you've not been to China, then what I say is indeed superior to anything you say. I don't care if that triggers you.
It doesn't trigger me, I seem to have triggered you!
You're the one posing as an expert, insulting and calling anyone with a different opinion to you 'morons, sheep' etc. based on the tiny bit of something that you have seen. That is hubris!
Like the 'experts' who came back from the Soviet Union, extolling their wonderful system!
Read again what I typed. Slowly. I said that in response to "Yes, well, bro, you only saw what they wanted you to see, bro".
If you say that to me, then yes, you're an imbecile and I don't give a fuck if you think that's arrogant. You're a fucking idiot if you make stupid claims. Don't make stupid claims, then. Simple.
My brother visits China regularly with his job, and from office workers to Pakistani taxi drivers, he’s never met anyone there who even knows what a Social Credit system is. They just haven't a clue what he’s on about.
To be fair, that's like saying most people in the west are not feminists, just because most people do not identify as blue haired feminist activists and have never seen a feminist convention or protest.
But the reality is feminism is now the default treatise on gender (as taught from daycare through to university) and feminist ideology dictates our laws, workplace etiquette, culture, most Hollywood scripts and the legal system.
And if the topic of feminism is ever debated in the mainstream (or even alternative) media the side 'opposing' feminism never actually challenge the ideology or its core tenets at all. Instead they just take up a more 'moderate' position (feminism was necessary, women were oppressed, it's only the last wave that has become a bit too radical etc).
Our entire culture in the west is feminist, and that is why nobody can see it and why there is so little opposition to it. It is the water we now swim in.
I would suggest the same is true in China with respect to the digital tyranny they've clearly got going on. It's not tyranny because it's been normalised. Nobody can see it because they are - in the main - being complaint and subservient.... just as in the west most people are complying with the doctrine of feminism and certainly not challenging it. People who HAVE challenged it have had their reputations, businesses and lives destroyed b 'the system'..... But nobody hears about that.
We can also note that the people who complied with (and greed with) lockdowns and vaccine mandates in 2020/ 2021 mostly had a great time! :)
They got to dance, enjoy the celebrity concerts and other events, there was a great community spirit, banging pots and pans and wearing your mask and complying with social distancing gave everyone's lives meaning. It was (for them) a mostly wholesome experience.
It was only the anti lockdown/ anti vax protestors who were getting all stressed out, and even today most of the compliant population can't comprehend why they were so upset and agitated by the whole thing. Most of them still believe it was all about saving lives and not slaughtering lives.
If they know someone who died unexpectedly they they still don't join the dots, and they still have no issue with what happened during 'covid'.
So the argument that any of these issues are "being blown out of proportion" is both true ... and false ... depending on which perspective you take. Less informed... or more informed.
Finally, I think the reason why people try to use China as an 'extreme' example is because most people (in the west) are already desensitised to the level of control already in place here.
People are more likely to recognise tyranny abroad because it's safe to call it out. But most people will defend (for example) the deployment of lockdowns, vaccines, vaccine passports, travel restrictions, facial recognition, CCTV, track and trace apps etc over the last few years in their own country for the simple reason that they are terrified and admitting (to themselves) just how tyrannical things have gotten.
Show them similar things happening in far away cultures and they are more likely to be able to 'see' how awful these things are.
Thanks for this. I’ve visited China several times over the years and was amazed at their progress from the first time. I was in Xi'an during the Chinese New Year one time and it was spectacular and a truly amazing atmosphere. Another time it was the night river cruise on the Huangpu in Shanghai that stunned me. Always felt safe wandering around and people were friendly. Only hassle I ever had was when security at Beijing airport found my stash of electronic cigarettes (early days, when they weren’t popular) and made me assemble and smoke them all, then it was laughs all around.
Interesting piece! Will you do any future pieces that aren’t focused on challenging the anti-China ideas and maybe other surprising travel impressions? Might not be a juicy as these articles, but I for one would be curious about things like:
- How well did the Chinese you spoke to speak in English and how much mandarin were you able to learn before going? Was it hard?
- The food!! Tell us about the food…
- City life - what’s it like living in the apartments in dense cities and stuff
- Wildlife and nature - what did you see, how it compares to nature in cities in western countries
- Health - did people seem healthy on the whole? I know they’re thinking of getting into 6G soon..
- Travel - how did you get around, was public transport good (high speed trains??), how crazy is driving lol
I, like others, have assumed that China's SCS was very much advanced. I will accept your explanations on the subject. True, the SCS will be part of the digital ID and CBDC coming to the world as the next wave of depopulation escalates. I see no other purpose for this nonsense to evolve. Why would government (or the deep state) want to police several billions of humans when they could essentially just X them out?
The UK and USA like to conjure up a villain, a pantomime character if you will. To justify actions upon their own people. We've seen it before thoughout history but with increasing effect as technology develops and it becoming more ubiquitous in our lives. Today's special seems to be China, Russia and even us who dare to say "what the fuck?" to any of their lies. I've always thought of Chinese culture as being enlightened and family orientated. British have plagued them with opium and uprisings have been implemented.
I'm not falling for it , nor the anti Russian sentiment. And I'm not falling for the apparent myth of "cyber hackers". The empire has no clothes and its resorting to demonising other countries for its own gain.
Great read cheers 👍
Jerm, I'm waiting for the fist comment asking how much China paid you to write these articles, LOL.
The sheep will be going baaaa, baaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
China? I'd be more worried about the coming financial collapse engineered by the Rothschild-controlled City of London, central banks, derivative 'market' and US dollar world currency, money-printing scam ('world currency' implies a monopoly, which describes it quite well - as in Monopoly Money!). Or the 200-or-so wars instigated by the US around the world over the last 80 years - facilitated by their 800+ foreign military bases and network of colour-revolution-funding NGOs. But China? Nope, they've kept their eye on the ball.
I've enjoyed your work in the past and I really appreciate you trying to clear the very murky waters here as regards digital ID...
However, I have to point out that going as a tourist basically means nothing.
https://decodingthedragon.substack.com/p/34-the-evolution-and-truth-of-chinas
Articles like the one above outline how the system evolved recently and that there is an explicit link between what your social credit score is and what services you can access. They aren't stupid and they're not going to do unnecessarily totalitarian things, but it is undeniable that when you say anything bad about the government there, they are going to make life very difficult for you indeed, and the newly introduced Cyberspace ID that came in this year centralises it even more. Basically, you never want to give that level of control to the government, ever, and this has nothing to do with how successful they are or what you might see and hear there as a tourist.
I've personally visited many times and it was a totally excellent place and almost everyone you spoke to was equally content (or so it seemed). However, did you speak to any "dissidents" or people who had a low score. I didn't because I don't know any, but I personally know many Chinese over in the West who never want to go back, no matter how nice it is, because they don't trust the government, especially after Covid where the mask literally came off (the government at least... You weren't allowed to take yours off, obviously).
You saw what the government tried to do here in the West... They actually did that in China, literally walling people into their respective areas and making sure they could basically do nothing if their pass wasn't Green.
Basically I agree that China is not always the complete totalitarian Hell hole that the clickbait pushers would like you to believe, but it is far further along the totalitarian path than we are, and to claim that the system they have there is basically exerting minimal control and is similar to systems already in place in some Western counties, is completely wrong and quite disingenuous. Maybe I've read your article wrong, but this is the impression I get, and as with any system of control, you want to normalise it gradually and make people think it's normal. They have basically achieved this, and the only reason it doesn't seem like that right now, is because they haven't been visibly abusing that power in such a blatant way that even their Great Firewall and social credit score couldn't keep it under wraps (see Covid response in China). The system is in place, facial recognition is normalised and expected, and your opinions and actions are absolutely tied to way more things than anyone should reasonably want. This is the reality in China and although they might not be using that power all the time, it's there and that's what matters. We need to make sure it doesn't happen here in the West!
And yet my article is correct.
Not really. If you drive badly, your driving license gets cancelled, but it doesn't affect your ability to do anything else, as there is no overall score. Nor does saying anything "forbidden" against the government change your ability to travel or get a loan or whatever (unless you get criminally charged I suppose, but even then, it's not a score). This is explicitly the case in China and the distinction is not trivial I'm afraid. Just imagine if Canada for example had that ability during the truckers protest. They explicitly froze bank accounts and tried to prosecute a bunch of them, but it was a manual, costly, and controversial move from them. If they were able to just lower their score automatically and completely cut them off, not just from their money, but from all other services as well, the protest probably couldn't have happened. You see any big protests in China (outside of the ones due to Covid). Thought not... It's not the same. Not even close
Have you been to China? If not, there is no way you can claim anything. You're just parroting what you see on the internet. Which is why visiting there is superior to NOT visiting.
I've been, as I've mentioned in my previous post. Many times both before and after Covid. It's very very nice unlike some of the cities I've visited in the West recently, that seem like they are in developing countries. Sadly, I don't think this means anything. I get your argument that it's not as dystopian as these clock bait bloggers make out, but honestly, saying it's the same as here is not helping anyone. They are way further along the totalitarian path than we are, and it helps no-one to say that it's the same. It is fundamentally not the same and you find out pretty quickly if you step out of line over there. Thankfully it's not the same over here yet. Please focus on that. That's the work we want to see and what will help here, not somehow saying it's not so bad in China where it's more totalitarian. I assume that's not the message you want to give.
You've stated that visiting China doesn't matter. So whether you've been or not is irrelevant. That said, how can you make the claims you do?
He said twice that he’s been there multiple times. Here’s his quote from just above:
“I've been, as I've mentioned in my previous post. Many times both before and after Covid. It's very very nice unlike some of the cities I've visited in the West recently, that seem like they are in developing countries. Sadly, I don't think this means anything. I get your argument that it's not as dystopian as these clock bait bloggers make out, but honestly, saying it's the same as here is not helping anyone. They are way further along the totalitarian path than we are, and it helps no-one to say that it's the same”
“It helps no on to say that it’s the same.”
It is indeed the same as elsewhere, and it should indeed help people by challenging their hysterical nonsense.
In fact, it is WORSE in some Western countries. The US has unbelievable mass surveillance. Palantir, for example. Stargate, too.
Let's just agree to disagree. If you're starting to get into these unofficial surveillance methods, then I would tend to agree, but even then, they haven't explicitly linked any of that activity to your ability to do everything that you need to. The upcoming systems in the west linked to digital ID though, explicitly do. This interconnectedness is what is scary and must be resisted by all means, where I think we are totally aligned. Looking forward to your upcoming posts!
I'm afraid I have to disagree that it was about the same account of tyranny. It was much much worse in China, but I completely agree that what Germany is planning is in no way preserving our freedoms, but is absolutely following what China is doing. Please see my extra reply above about the fundamental differences in the way the systems work in both places though. It's not a trivial difference I'm afraid.
How would you know if it was "much worse in China"?
Because I went to China, which is better than going to New Zealand.
A friend of ours, who grew up in South Africa, has been living and working in China for the past 7 or 8 years. He now speaks fluent Mandarin and would agree with you, Jerm, that the Western perception of China is complete rubbish. He loves living there and finds the work opportunities far better than in Europe, where he also lived for many years.
Another friend, an American, lived and taught English there for 5 years. She loves the country and has many friends there. She also says that China is nothing like we've been brainwashed to believe it is.
Just a friendly reminder that social credit scores and facial recognition is how productive civilisations are built and high trust societies are maintained.
If someone starts a war, pushes poisonous injections onto the population, destroys ordinary businesses while creating monopolies, commits fraud or theft or is involved in any other type of scam then you need to lower their social credit score and exclude them from further participation in civilised society.
And if they show their faces again you need to recognise them and say "Hey! - the fuck outa here punk!" in your best New Yorker accent.
Social condemnation and social / economic ostracism are really the only tools we have to prevent the worst low life criminals from taking over society.
Based on the last 5 years alone, all politicians, doctors, nurses, scientists and most employers should now have a social credit score of NEGATIVE 50,000,000 and they should be at the bottom of the social hierarchy.
This not only removes them from the 'front lines' of society, but it also serves as an incentive for their replacements to clean up their act so they do not suffer a similar fate.
The problem is not the concept of social credit/ facial recognition. The problem is that we've been tricked into abandoning this practice, which also has allowed the worst elements in society to pick up the ball and run with it.
Your argument makes sense in principle, but reality will often mean that the system will very quickly degenerate into a horrible dystopia. The sad thing is that even if it is other people (and not the government) that decides who did something worthy of social credit score reduction, it'll still almost certainly be horrible. Just watch the Black Mirror episode on it and you will see what I mean. It's called Nosedive (there's even a Wiki page on it). I'm afraid having a social credit system, even if it isn't tied to anything else, is not something I can get behind.
You already have a social credit score.
Yip.
I got banned from LinkedIn during Covid as I was asking too many questions and shared articles that I thought warranted a discussion.
To rejoin LinkedIn I need to upload my South African ID. I don't have an ID card as I was not born in South Africa, only the green ID book (I am a South African citizen by the way as I was born overseas due to my father being a diplomat)
I fumed when LinkedIn asked me for my ID. Why should I upload my ID when I didn't need to when I originally joined?!
I decided to see what would happen if I scanned my green ID book, but redacted the bar code and the last six digits of my ID number.
LinkedIn did not accept this.
So guess what? I am still not back on LinkedIn.
My point is, even though many people think we are not on a social credit score, there are companies/entities that do (or have) apply it.
Now, let's assume I want to apply for a new job. The company I want to work for goes and looks at my social media... Hmmm?!
What do you think my prospects are?
Still not a social credit score. You are only banned from LinkedIn.
No we do not, not officially anyway. The closest thing might be your credit score, but again, it only seems to affect your ability to get credit, not anything else. The distinction is important, that even if there is a score, if it only affects the thing that it's tied to, ie credit score to financial, bad driving to driving licence etc, these are not social credit scores
If you have a criminal record, you will struggle to get a bank loan. That's a social credit score.
China has the same thing.
Thanks for helping us think it through. To my mind, people with a criminal record should get increased scrutiny. When law abiding folks get excess scrutiny because they are suspected of a critical attitude towards the govt, is that really "the same thing"?
I no longer believe anything I see online or from the media until I've vetted the source, and since I'm an average joe shmo, I've little ability to do so. I have never met and will likely never meet anyone who posts what I see, and I don't have any technical ability to dissect videos or images for something like ai. Other than sitting there going over everything I see looking for inconsistencies, which gets wearisome, i can't tell what's what. I guess at some point, some level of trust is necessary.
I've heard but not seen imagery about oppression etc, because of course china has things so incredibly locked down we can't get images of mutilated Uygurs. 🤔 But I've seen many videos coming, supposedly, out of china showing facial recognition technology everywhere in the major cities, people sleeping on the streets because their accounts were locked and they were locked out of their apartments, people being locked in during convid, etc. Facial recognition at groceries to access money, etc. Do you believe these videos to be fake and acted, or Ai generated, in some way, directly as propaganda? Did you not see any of this anywhere in the larger population areas? Are they real images being used "out of context? Because if not, that's an impressively large volume of videos to create. Who's making them?
I’d suggest, if you want a readership, that you not tell people they’re stupid or call them names. Have compassion for the world’s people who are confused, tired, and brainwashed.
Furthermore, I know people who live in China, and there most certainly is a serious social credit system. They don’t like what you’re saying? You don’t get to ride the train. Or go to the bank. Or a myriad of other things important to daily life.
You want to call me names over that statement? Go ahead.
"and there most certainly is a serious social credit system"
No there isn't.
"I’d suggest, if you want a readership, that you not tell people they’re stupid or call them names."
I'll call them names if they deserve it. I’ve got no tolerance for offended cupcakes.
Hey jerm, thank you for putting up with the insufferable sheep, grit your teeth and keep the honest journalism coming.Thankyou for your insight, the truth always prevails
Here’s a hint: you don’t truly understand any country - until you’ve lived & worked in it for at least one full year.
This is one o the funniest comments I keep receiving and it's one of pointlessness. Going to a country is superior to NOT going. People will always kick the can down the road and make your experience irrelevant. I met up with people who have lived in China for 29 years, which beats your "one full year".
It's all so stupid.
Jerm you have to admit this is a rather strange narrative in the current situation? Rather than trying to defend your position (and quoting Grok ffs) can you please explain why you think promoting an idea that the “CCP isn’t all that bad” is helpful and to whom? Are you encouraging people to move there perhaps? Who funded your trip there and what is your connection with Carl Zha?
I care about what is true. Do you?
Jerm, the sheep in the comments going baaaa, baaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Not sure who you are referring to here when you mention the "sheep" but if it is directed to Ursula, I can tell you from personal experience, having worked closely with her for close to three years now, that she is anything but "sheep" and EVERY single word in her question above is very intentional and comes from a place of DEEP knowledge.
Will leave it at that.
The ‘sheep’ in the comments have done some research and have legitimate questions btw.
I would argue the opposite. The sheep have created their own narratives.
I know more ‘truth’ about your trips to HKG & China than perhaps you realise, Jerm. I follow the money to see facts, and my questions (and others) remain unanswered.
What questions do you have?
It would appear to be a cryptic insinuation that you have financial links to "CCP agent" Carl Zha 😱 Substack is totally infiltrated so everything needs to be taken with a bucketful of organic sea salt.
Agree, Jerm! Your writing is nuanced and informed. Have you been to Hong Kong,? I have lived here for over 25 years and can suggest it's the most charming city in China. Currently on the rise again and probably the most exciting city in Asia. Please come! And let me know if you do!
I have been to Hong Kong, yes. I was there last year.
Why do I need to read a Substack by someone who hasn’t been to China, when I’m discussing China?
After living and working in Spain for a few weeks I said "Wow. This is a fabulous country!" Four years later I said the same thing with tears in my eyes because I had to return to hellscape UK.
It is possible to get an accurate impression in a very short visit IF you go with an open mind.
Frances, why can't more people think like you?
BTW, a comparison between Spain & UK, with SA & China, (or UK & China, by a South African, Or even Germany & China) is not really relevant to the current discussion about social credit scores & digital ID. Just saying.
It’s very relevant.
It's interesting to me that persons who feel the need to put PhD after their name see things generally from a more pedantic perspective than others. It's predictable and tiresome
Indeed. As tiresome as a company that you’ve trusted for years, donated valuable time, IP and hard earned, tax paid money to, posting personal insults to you and then censoring others when asking politely who their HKG-based new shareholders actually are? I’m still waiting for the new directors to tell us what if any strings are attached to this overseas company’s ‘investment’…Truth always gets out, eventually.
Oh... So it's personal then
Who paid, Jerm? Are you in the UK now?
What makes you an expert? You sound WOKE AF.
An expert on what? I’m simply asking Jerm some relevant questions.
I love when someone goes to a place to see for themselves what’s going on. There is so much BS out there about everything. You have to see things with your own eyes and ears. That’s the only way you see the truth.
"I spent a whole three weeks in China, now I'm the world's greatest expert on the country.
Anyone who disagrees with my superior knowledge is a moron".
That is hubris and arrogance off the scale!
You're using a logical fallacy. I didn't say I'm an expert. But if you've not been to China, then what I say is indeed superior to anything you say. I don't care if that triggers you.
It doesn't trigger me, I seem to have triggered you!
You're the one posing as an expert, insulting and calling anyone with a different opinion to you 'morons, sheep' etc. based on the tiny bit of something that you have seen. That is hubris!
Like the 'experts' who came back from the Soviet Union, extolling their wonderful system!
Read again what I typed. Slowly. I said that in response to "Yes, well, bro, you only saw what they wanted you to see, bro".
If you say that to me, then yes, you're an imbecile and I don't give a fuck if you think that's arrogant. You're a fucking idiot if you make stupid claims. Don't make stupid claims, then. Simple.
My brother visits China regularly with his job, and from office workers to Pakistani taxi drivers, he’s never met anyone there who even knows what a Social Credit system is. They just haven't a clue what he’s on about.
To be fair, that's like saying most people in the west are not feminists, just because most people do not identify as blue haired feminist activists and have never seen a feminist convention or protest.
But the reality is feminism is now the default treatise on gender (as taught from daycare through to university) and feminist ideology dictates our laws, workplace etiquette, culture, most Hollywood scripts and the legal system.
And if the topic of feminism is ever debated in the mainstream (or even alternative) media the side 'opposing' feminism never actually challenge the ideology or its core tenets at all. Instead they just take up a more 'moderate' position (feminism was necessary, women were oppressed, it's only the last wave that has become a bit too radical etc).
Our entire culture in the west is feminist, and that is why nobody can see it and why there is so little opposition to it. It is the water we now swim in.
I would suggest the same is true in China with respect to the digital tyranny they've clearly got going on. It's not tyranny because it's been normalised. Nobody can see it because they are - in the main - being complaint and subservient.... just as in the west most people are complying with the doctrine of feminism and certainly not challenging it. People who HAVE challenged it have had their reputations, businesses and lives destroyed b 'the system'..... But nobody hears about that.
We can also note that the people who complied with (and greed with) lockdowns and vaccine mandates in 2020/ 2021 mostly had a great time! :)
They got to dance, enjoy the celebrity concerts and other events, there was a great community spirit, banging pots and pans and wearing your mask and complying with social distancing gave everyone's lives meaning. It was (for them) a mostly wholesome experience.
It was only the anti lockdown/ anti vax protestors who were getting all stressed out, and even today most of the compliant population can't comprehend why they were so upset and agitated by the whole thing. Most of them still believe it was all about saving lives and not slaughtering lives.
If they know someone who died unexpectedly they they still don't join the dots, and they still have no issue with what happened during 'covid'.
So the argument that any of these issues are "being blown out of proportion" is both true ... and false ... depending on which perspective you take. Less informed... or more informed.
Finally, I think the reason why people try to use China as an 'extreme' example is because most people (in the west) are already desensitised to the level of control already in place here.
People are more likely to recognise tyranny abroad because it's safe to call it out. But most people will defend (for example) the deployment of lockdowns, vaccines, vaccine passports, travel restrictions, facial recognition, CCTV, track and trace apps etc over the last few years in their own country for the simple reason that they are terrified and admitting (to themselves) just how tyrannical things have gotten.
Show them similar things happening in far away cultures and they are more likely to be able to 'see' how awful these things are.
It sounds like we are being played, big time. After the last 5 years, it's no surprise.
Yes, we are being played.
Thanks for this. I’ve visited China several times over the years and was amazed at their progress from the first time. I was in Xi'an during the Chinese New Year one time and it was spectacular and a truly amazing atmosphere. Another time it was the night river cruise on the Huangpu in Shanghai that stunned me. Always felt safe wandering around and people were friendly. Only hassle I ever had was when security at Beijing airport found my stash of electronic cigarettes (early days, when they weren’t popular) and made me assemble and smoke them all, then it was laughs all around.
Interesting piece! Will you do any future pieces that aren’t focused on challenging the anti-China ideas and maybe other surprising travel impressions? Might not be a juicy as these articles, but I for one would be curious about things like:
- How well did the Chinese you spoke to speak in English and how much mandarin were you able to learn before going? Was it hard?
- The food!! Tell us about the food…
- City life - what’s it like living in the apartments in dense cities and stuff
- Wildlife and nature - what did you see, how it compares to nature in cities in western countries
- Health - did people seem healthy on the whole? I know they’re thinking of getting into 6G soon..
- Travel - how did you get around, was public transport good (high speed trains??), how crazy is driving lol
I, like others, have assumed that China's SCS was very much advanced. I will accept your explanations on the subject. True, the SCS will be part of the digital ID and CBDC coming to the world as the next wave of depopulation escalates. I see no other purpose for this nonsense to evolve. Why would government (or the deep state) want to police several billions of humans when they could essentially just X them out?